Hank/J'onn Jones

Great thoughts, Sully. My preference? I wish they had NOT made him MMH. He adds some of the worst plot holes-- i.e...supposedly a powerhouse mind reader, but every single time a simple mind read would solve the problem, suddenly his ability is rendered useless. And then there was his and Supergirl's trip to Mars where Kara suddenly didn't need oxygen. And don't even get me started on how his fight scenes (especially Season 1) were just wretched. lol oh and his dad... On Mars he already took the form of a Black man. How? Why? Do black humans OFTEN run around Mars for green Martians to use as a shape shifting blueprint?

I love Hank... saddly, not a huge fan of Jonn.

I believe many fans of the show are way overthinking this.

First, there's never been a live-action depiction of the Martian Manhunter on a regular, live action tv series or a live-action theatrically released movie. I take the position of being grateful for the excellent actor playing him, and the number of times we DO get to see him do some cool stuff.

Second, with the name of the show the point of the show, and the primary script emphasis ... of the show ... being well - SUPERGIRL; any secondary character (all of them to some extent) are going to be overshadowed and overpowered to one degree or another. Obviously, thid is for valid for plot purposes and financial reasons, and I accept that.

Surrounding Kara with mostly talented but non-powered humans eventually puts the show back in the old "The Adventures of Superman" 50's show mode: Minor, mundane mystery brought to the attention of Kryptonian in civilian identity; several minutes of talking followred by flying effects, bullets bouncing or "steel" being bent. Bad guys knocked out. Day Saved.

But today add cgi and green screen.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Or we get more soap, which doesn't cost anything except the wear and tear on our psyches.

I guess I'm a glass-half-full and don't-sweat-the-small stuff kind of guy.

Both your points are valid but I don’t regret having MM around. It brought problems but also some good storylines and massive appeal, and justifies many likeable aspects of his character.

Both your points are valid but I don’t regret having MM around. It brought problems but also some good storylines and massive appeal, and justifies many likeable aspects of his character.

I loved Human for a Day when Hank revealed who he was to Alex. I also think that, as J'onn, he provides a unique connection to Kara in that they share a similar history regarding their families and world. So, I agree that the show would miss out on a gold mine if he wasn't J'onn.

I usually don't think too much about J'onn or Superman not being around to help when I'm watching the episode. But, when I get on social media or YouTube after and I see a number of comments asking, "Where's MM; where's Superman? Why don't they come help?", then the weakness of the episode is highlighted. I think the plot holes could easily be fixed if the writers would have added either a limitation to the characters abilities or a reason for the lack of their presence in some way. I watch Agents of Shield and they limited the most powerful character on the show by attaching a physical reason to why she can't always use her powers. It didn't take much and it covers some of the plot holes and allows for more suspense.

My original intent was just to see if maybe there would have been a different superhero that might have worked better than MM for Hank to be, or if he should have been one. As I stated, it's a done deal now. Just looking at passing the time during this seventh-inning stretch .

I have always wondered about making him Martian Manhunter....a bit too powerful to leave on the sidelines a good portion of the time ie when mind reading is needed, YES, he suddenly in inadequate in that department to take care of that. Also, I would have much rather it been Jonn that trained Kara, and making sure that she could fight better than him, that would have taken care of some of the plotholes of not using him more in fighting sequences....if she is as well trained as he is, he then can stay behind and run the DEO while she is on the front lines.. To me it would have been much better to have made him a shapeshifting alien from some planet somewhere....he still could have had an earlier relationship with Superman, and Jeremiah, all of that could have stayed the same. Then they could have gone full out using the real Hank Henshaw as Cyborg Superman and done him MUCH BETTER.

I have never been a fan of the fight scenes with Martian Manhunter, they have been pretty clumsy and slow IMO.....

I do, however love the relationship between Jonn, Alex and Kara...I would love to see more of that.

As to this being the "first"....Martian Manhunter was on Smallville I believe.

I also think that we lost MANY Martian Manhunter fans when he had to be powered down so much. IMO, they could have had HIM TRAIN KARA, not Alex.....and trained her well enough to not necessarily need him at every turn and only use him at specific times....like in "Falling"....that to me was one of the best fight scenes with him.....he could have also gone to get Kara and Mon-el in "Supergirl Lives" rather than Alex.

IMO, it has been the desire to put Alex front and center so much that has sidelined Martian Manhunter. Some have even gone to the point of saying that it is the "Alex Danvers" show rather than "Supergirl". I don't necessarily take it that far, but I can see their point.

I also think that we lost MANY Martian Manhunter fans when he had to be powered down so much. IMO, they could have had HIM TRAIN KARA, not Alex.....and trained her well enough to not necessarily need him at every turn and only use him at specific times....like in "Falling"....that to me was one of the best fight scenes with him.....he could have also gone to get Kara and Mon-el in "Supergirl Lives" rather than Alex.

IMO, it has been the desire to put Alex front and center so much that has sidelined Martian Manhunter. Some have even gone to the point of saying that it is the "Alex Danvers" show rather than "Supergirl". I don't necessarily take it that far, but I can see their point.

I don't think that Hank had revealed himself when Alex first started training Kara so, it would have been logical for Alex to begin that process. And, I suppose the thinking afterwards was that J'onn had trained Alex (and I think continued to train her) and therefore, she would be capable of training Kara. Hank is the director of the DEO so, perhaps he is unable to get as free to train as Alex would have been.

Alex is my second favorite character behind Kara but, I agree that the second season seemed to be overtaken a bit by her character and story. As was Mon-El. From what I watched, it almost appeared as though they were the leads and Kara was a secondary character and her involvement was more a part of helping their stories move forward rather than the other way around. But, I think that this season has been flipped back to the way it should be - thus far.

I don't believe that MM was sidelined to make Alex front and center - I think it had more to do with cost of CGI, and as you stated, how difficult it was to make him look good in fights. Plus, I think that they're very cognitive of needing to keep Supergirl the strongest character, physically, and showing MM too much would negate that idea. From discussions I have seen, I think more people (comic book fans) have been put off and don't watch due to Superman being absent and made to be weaker than Supergirl than making MM weaker than her.

The fight scene between MM and SG in Falling was great. Not Reign vs. SG greatness but, still very good.

I also think that we lost MANY Martian Manhunter fans when he had to be powered down so much. IMO, they could have had HIM TRAIN KARA, not Alex.....and trained her well enough to not necessarily need him at every turn and only use him at specific times....like in "Falling"....that to me was one of the best fight scenes with him.....he could have also gone to get Kara and Mon-el in "Supergirl Lives" rather than Alex.

IMO, it has been the desire to put Alex front and center so much that has sidelined Martian Manhunter. Some have even gone to the point of saying that it is the "Alex Danvers" show rather than "Supergirl". I don't necessarily take it that far, but I can see their point.

I don't think that Hank had revealed himself when Alex first started training Kara so, it would have been logical for Alex to begin that process. And, I suppose the thinking afterwards was that J'onn had trained Alex (and I think continued to train her) and therefore, she would be capable of training Kara. Hank is the director of the DEO so, perhaps he is unable to get as free to train as Alex would have been.

Alex is my second favorite character behind Kara but, I agree that the second season seemed to be overtaken a bit by her character and story. As was Mon-El. From what I watched, it almost appeared as though they were the leads and Kara was a secondary character and her involvement was more a part of helping their stories move forward rather than the other way around. But, I think that this season has been flipped back to the way it should be - thus far.

I don't believe that MM was sidelined to make Alex front and center - I think it had more to do with cost of CGI, and as you stated, how difficult it was to make him look good in fights. Plus, I think that they're very cognitive of needing to keep Supergirl the strongest character, physically, and showing MM too much would negate that idea. From discussions I have seen, I think more people (comic book fans) have been put off and don't watch due to Superman being absent and made to be weaker than Supergirl than making MM weaker than her.

The fight scene between MM and SG in Falling was great. Not Reign vs. SG greatness but, still very good.

The only thing we ever saw of Alex training her before his reveal was her showing her that she wasn't ready for the real world of superhero....he could have very easily been the one to do that, and that would have simply gave us the idea that he was the one training her as he had trained Alex. The next time we see them sparring is right before her big fight with Alura, there could have simply been a line in there stating that Kara didn't trust Hank at the time and therefore felt more comfortable with Alex.....something like.... "Thanks for sparring with me, I'm not sure that I could hold back on punches with Hank.".... Alex could just smile....then Kara finds out at the end of the next episode and we see her and Jonn sparring in a much different way now that she knows he is Jonn. I mean, we immediately get the flying lesson the next episode, we should have seen much more of that between the two. IMO...

Just yesterday I was reading a post on a Flash FB group I belong to about how Cisco Ramon/Vibe is way more powerful in the comics than he is on the show. There are plotlines that could be easily resolved if somebody thought about Cisco using his powers. We actually saw that in “Duet”, why didn’t Cisco or anybody on team flash think to have him vibe Barry and Kara before they were dying, the answer is because the plot called for it. In ‘’Crisis on Earth-X’ Cisco was taken out in the wedding fight and either unconscious or trapped in the pipeline he designed for much of the crossover miniseries. Why because if he had been transported to Earth-X with the others as soon as Citizen Cold removed the collars our heroes would’ve been able to get back to Earth-1. On the show Cisco’s girlfriend Gypsy is a powerful meta-human bounty hunter from Earth-19 who has the same powers as Cisco, she even helped with Savatar. Gypsy should’ve been Cisco’s date for the wedding yet she wasn’t because for the plot she would’ve had to have been taken out too. Cisco’s powers aren’t even particularly VFX heavy, certainly not nearly as expensive as MMH. My point is MMH is not the only superhero who’s TV incarnation is powered down from the comics.

Let’s take a closer look at J’onn. I think it’s safe to say the “space dad’ aspect of his character is a fan favorite. He and Kara can relate to each other in ways they can’t with any other character.
Season one J’onn didn’t reveal himself to Alex until she forced him to in S1E7 “human for a day”. Kara defiantly needed training before that. J’onn was actually captured and swapped for Astra in S1E9 “blood bonds” he may have even been a prisoner when Alex was training Kara in that episode. In S1E10 “childish things” J’onn does use his powers to get into Max’s lab. J’onn using his powers in that episode attracts the white martian in S1E11 “strange visitor from another planet” where J’onn defiantly uses his powers. In S1E13 MMH goes into battle which, of course leads to Alex killing Astra to save him. IMO Kara/Alex/J’onn weren’t really family until S1E15 when Kara grabs his hand as he tries to leave the room after Alex tells Kara that she killed Astra. S1E16 “falling” is where J’onn revels himself to the world to save both his daughters. In the final two episodes of season one J’onn used his powers.

Season two is where I think the complaints about J’onn not using his powers start. S2E2 “last children of krypton” he does fight alongside Superman to take down a Metallo. In S2E4 “survivors” he’s captured and forced to fight M’gann. He fights alongside Supergirl against parasite in S2E6 “changing”, almost dying in that fight. J’onn risks his life when he leaves the DEO at the end of S2E8 “medusa”. S2E9 “Supergirl lives” is IMO the first real J’onn should have done it moment. It would have been better to initially say humans can’t survive under a red sun then have Winn create something to allow that but like the yellow sun grenade only have time to make one. Alex could have given Winn the same pep talk butt adding that he needed to be the one human to go because it was more important that he keep the portal open. We saw lots of MMH action in S2E11 “the martian chronicles”. In S2E12 ‘luthors” MMH did fly to the rescue but many pointed out that he should have left at the same time as Kara did, but of course plot. I’d say the two most obvious times where J’onn’s powers were sidelined for the plot were S2E14 “homecoming” and S2E19 “Alex” where he didn’t or couldn’t read human’s minds. Weather you liked it or not at least they wrote a plausible way to sideline MMH in the last two episodes of season two. In the current season the question is why didn’t J’onn go with Supergirl to fight Reign. Everyone else would have just been a major distraction for Kara and I’m not sure MMH wouldn’t have been too. In my mind building on what he said in S2E3 “welcome to earth” J’onn thinks he can do more good if he blends in.

Every character especially secondary characters is at times used as a plot device. For whatever reason they can’t do something the audience knows they should be able to or they do something they shouldn’t be able to do.

Just yesterday I was reading a post on a Flash FB group I belong to about how Cisco Ramon/Vibe is way more powerful in the comics than he is on the show. There are plotlines that could be easily resolved if somebody thought about Cisco using his powers. We actually saw that in “Duet”, why didn’t Cisco or anybody on team flash think to have him vibe Barry and Kara before they were dying, the answer is because the plot called for it. In ‘’Crisis on Earth-X’ Cisco was taken out in the wedding fight and either unconscious or trapped in the pipeline he designed for much of the crossover miniseries. Why because if he had been transported to Earth-X with the others as soon as Citizen Cold removed the collars our heroes would’ve been able to get back to Earth-1. On the show Cisco’s girlfriend Gypsy is a powerful meta-human bounty hunter from Earth-19 who has the same powers as Cisco, she even helped with Savatar. Gypsy should’ve been Cisco’s date for the wedding yet she wasn’t because for the plot she would’ve had to have been taken out too. Cisco’s powers aren’t even particularly VFX heavy, certainly not nearly as expensive as MMH. My point is MMH is not the only superhero who’s TV incarnation is powered down from the comics.

Let’s take a closer look at J’onn. I think it’s safe to say the “space dad’ aspect of his character is a fan favorite. He and Kara can relate to each other in ways they can’t with any other character.
Season one J’onn didn’t reveal himself to Alex until she forced him to in S1E7 “human for a day”. Kara defiantly needed training before that. J’onn was actually captured and swapped for Astra in S1E9 “blood bonds” he may have even been a prisoner when Alex was training Kara in that episode. In S1E10 “childish things” J’onn does use his powers to get into Max’s lab. J’onn using his powers in that episode attracts the white martian in S1E11 “strange visitor from another planet” where J’onn defiantly uses his powers. In S1E13 MMH goes into battle which, of course leads to Alex killing Astra to save him. IMO Kara/Alex/J’onn weren’t really family until S1E15 when Kara grabs his hand as he tries to leave the room after Alex tells Kara that she killed Astra. S1E16 “falling” is where J’onn revels himself to the world to save both his daughters. In the final two episodes of season one J’onn used his powers.

Seaason two is where I think the complaints about J’onn not using his powers start. S2E2 “last children of krypton” he does fight alongside Superman to take down a Metallo. In S2E4 “survivors” he’s captured and forced to fight M’gann. He fights alongside Supergirl against parasite in S2E6 “changing”, almost dying in that fight. J’onn risks his life when he leaves the DEO at the end of S2E8 “medusa”. S2E9 “Supergirl lives” is IMO the first real J’onn should have done it moment. It would have been better to initially say humans can’t survive under a red sun then have Winn create something to allow that but like the yellow sun grenade only have time to make one. Alex could have given Winn the same pep talk butt adding that he needed to be the one human to go because it was more important that he keep the portal open. We saw lots of MMH action in S2E11 “the martian chronicles”. In S2E12 ‘luthors” MMH did fly to the rescue but many pointed out that he should have left at the same time as Kara did, but of course plot. I’d say the two most obvious times where J’onn’s powers were sidelined for the plot were S2E14 “homecoming” and S2E19 “Alex” where he didn’t or couldn’t read human’s minds. Weather you liked it or not at least they wrote a plausible way to sideline MMH in the last two episodes of season two. In the current season the question is why didn’t J’onn go with Supergirl to fight Reign. Everyone else would have just been a major distraction for Kara and I’m not sure MMH wouldn’t have been too. In my mind building on what he said in S2E3 “welcome to earth” J’onn thinks he can do more good if he blends in.

Every character especially secondary characters is at times used as a plot device. For whatever reason they can’t do something the audience knows they should be able to or they do something they shouldn’t be able to do.

Actually Alex sparring with Kara was in the episode before Jonn was captured....

My biggest problem with Martian Manhunter is not really that he isn't fighting enough, or used enough....it is the fact that he looks terrible when he is used. The fight with Alura and the fight with Metallo were both cringe worthy in the stunt and FX work. Then we have the fight with him and M'Gann's husband in the alley and that was just as cringe worthy as the others. I don't mind him not being used simply for that reason alone, they can't get it right when they do use him. It's horrible...

I got mixed feelings on how powerful he is. But, one point is valid, is that, if he is better than Kara, what is the point of Kara?

He could still be a mentor figure. Yoda and Obiwan did not end up defeating Vader and the Emperor, but Luke did. They were his teachers but Luke was innately stronger.

My biggest problem with Martian Manhunter is not really that he isn't fighting enough, or used enough....it is the fact that he looks terrible when he is used. The fight with Alura and the fight with Metallo were both cringe worthy in the stunt and FX work. Then we have the fight with him and M'Gann's husband in the alley and that was just as cringe worthy as the others. I don't mind him not being used simply for that reason alone, they can't get it right when they do use him. It's horrible...

I feel you there, I think the technique being used isn’t working well. It’s my understanding that the way MMH is done is either David or a stunt double has white dots on thier body that are then used to overlay the CGI. I can only guess that technique that’s cheaper than straight up CGI. Earth-X Red Tornado was a big improvement whatever technique they used there should be considered for MMH. If they need to forget about the dots and go full CGI so MMH moves better than they should. The more they do the cheaper it gets as a library is built up. The dots may be ok for the non action stuff that David himself does.

I got mixed feelings on how powerful he is. But, one point is valid, is that, if he is better than Kara, what is the point of Kara?

He could still be a mentor figure. Yoda and Obiwan did not end up defeating Vader and the Emperor, but Luke did. They were his teachers but Luke was innately stronger.

Yes, I could easily see Hank more as a Yoda or Obi-Wan character. I know that Hank has been shown to be closer to Alex than Kara and I understand why they're close but, really J'onn and Kara should have a deeper connection than they currently have. They could have made J'onn an older Martian, who still has some power but, is limited in using it due to vulnerabilities caused by advancing age, so Kara and J'onn's relationship would be somewhat similar to Luke and Yoda. While maybe Alex trained Kara in fighting techniques, J'onn would have guided her more in mental strengthening and understanding her Kryptonian spirit.